00:00:00:18 - 00:00:24:12 Speaker 1 Welcome, everyone to today's webinar about the regulation to prevent new gas connections in the ACT. My name is Jess Baxter and I am The engagement and Change Lead at the Social Deck. We’re working with the team in the ACT Government to help deliver these consultations about the new regulation. I would like to start by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land from which we each join this webinar today. 00:00:24:14 - 00:00:45:04 Speaker 1 For me in Canberra, that's the Ngunnawal people. I want to give thanks for being on their traditional lands and acknowledge the connection and care that First Nations people have had with the land, water and life on these country for many thousands of years. I pay my respects to elders past and present, and I extend that acknowledgment and respect to all First Nations people here joining us today. 00:00:46:13 - 00:01:09:09 Speaker 1 Now, as I mentioned, the social deck is hosting today's event on behalf of the Environment, Planning and Sustainable Development Directorate within the ACT Government. I'll soon hand over to Cath Collins, director of Regulatory Policy, Integrated Energy Plan Delivery at the Directorate to provide a brief overview of the broader context for the Regulation and to summarize the draft issues paper that we'll be discussing today. 00:01:09:24 - 00:01:33:00 Speaker 1 But we're also really grateful to have two panelists with us today who will be offering their perspectives throughout the discussion. I'd like to introduce Davina Rooney, CEO, Green Building Council of Australia. Davina joined Green Building Council of Australia in June 2019 as chief executive officer. Davina came to GBC from Stockland, where she was general manager, Sustainability and corporate procurement. 00:01:33:17 - 00:02:07:02 Speaker 1 Davina has a variety of sustainability experience from environmental projects, not for profit boards and oversees community work, spending eight months working in the Indian Himalayas on the construction of a school which won multiple international awards. Davina is an engineer and has extensive experience in sustainability and building consulting. Davina has been recognized by industry awards, including NAWIC New South Wales Sustainability 2016, PCA 2014 Future Leaders Award and Sydney University Engineering Young Alumni Award. 00:02:07:10 - 00:02:09:14 Speaker 1 Welcome, Davina. Thanks so much for being here today. 00:02:09:24 - 00:02:10:19 Speaker 2 Thanks for having me. 00:02:11:14 - 00:02:36:01 Speaker 1 I would also like to introduce Michael Hopkins, who is CEO of Master Builders Association of the ACT. He's also CEO of MBA Group Training, which is Canberra's largest specialist construction industry training organization. Michael is also a director of the OzHelp Foundation, an organization established by the MBA to provide mental health support for people in the construction industry. 00:02:36:20 - 00:02:39:12 Speaker 1 Hi, Michael, welcome. Thank you for being with us today. 00:02:40:05 - 00:02:41:06 Speaker 3 Thanks for that. Nice welcome. 00:02:42:15 - 00:03:10:09 Speaker 1 Okay, So before we get into the discussion, I'm just going to have a bit of an overview about what we will cover today. So we'll be discussing the proposed regulation to prevent new gas connections in the ACT. Now, while the regulation is in the broader context of the pathway to electrification, and we will hear a little more about that from Cath, really the focus of today's webinar and what we will be asking for your feedback on is the initial regulation to prevent new fossil fuel gas connections in the ACT. 00:03:11:09 - 00:03:30:24 Speaker 1 I want to acknowledge that there are a range of complex issues to work through in the broader context, and the ACT Government is designing specific consultations around some of those. But our focus today will be on the proposed regulation only and specifically on the draft issues paper and some of the key issues that have been identified so far. 00:03:31:20 - 00:04:00:15 Speaker 1 Some of these issues are things like identifying land or premises that are subject to the regulation and the application of the regulation to greenfield and infill developments, exemptions to the regulation reporting and transition period and considerations and comments of date. So now I am going to pass over to Cath Collins from the Directorate to give us some context around the pathway to electrification and overview of the new regulation and a summary of the issues paper. 00:04:00:16 - 00:04:27:10 Speaker 1 Thanks, Cath. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for making some time to come and talk to us today. So some of you may know that in August last year that the ACT Government announced that its pathway to decarbonize fossil fuel gas would be through electrification. This policy approach was decided after two years of in-depth analysis of the gas use context within the ACT and various different approaches to decarbonization. 00:04:28:01 - 00:04:58:14 Speaker 1 Additionally, modeling was undertaken that showed that gas use within the ACT has been declining on a per customer basis over the past ten years and that this continued decline would put significant pressure on the economic viability of the gas network in its current form, wholesale and wide scale substitution of green gas was not viewed as an economically viable alternative as the cost pressures associated with green gas would put even more pressure on any end consumers and led to further declines in network use. 00:04:59:01 - 00:05:25:22 Speaker 1 However, the government does acknowledge that green gas will need to be a part of the ACT’s future for industries that cannot electrify. Managing a declining network during the transition period raises significant policy implications and concerns for the ACT government. The Australian Energy Regulator's own reporting is showing that these declines are already happening in the ACT, with the last six successive quarters showing retail customer declines compared to the previous year. 00:05:26:12 - 00:05:55:23 Speaker 1 The IEA shows that there was almost no net connection growth after considering disconnections and abolishment last financial year. That's before the electrification announcement was made. These trends will have ongoing implications for our building construction and gas industry colleagues going forward. This means that if we don't start putting in long term planning measures and signals, we risk much of our community being left behind or incurring additional costs that could that could have been avoided. 00:05:56:09 - 00:06:24:15 Speaker 1 The ACT Government is looking to manage a transition that balances cost and equity issues, assist vulnerable consumers, provides pathways to transitioning complex buildings, ensures that we have a stable and sufficient electricity supply and buildings. Building, supporting and transitioning. Transitioning the workforce towards an all electric future. How we manage the transition is a much bigger pace of work than what we are here to discuss today. 00:06:25:07 - 00:06:51:13 Speaker 1 The government will be releasing a draft integrated energy plan to the public consultation later this year, which will look to address these types of issues. Today's webinar will not focus on the electrification pathway decision. Today we're here to talk about a regulation to prevent new gas connections. In 2020, the ACT government made a commitment in the parliamentary and governing agreement to regulate to prevent new fossil gas connections. 00:06:52:14 - 00:07:13:17 Speaker 1 This work is not about making, is about making, it is about not making the transition task bigger or harder. We know that the majority of New gas connections in the ACT are for residential purposes. And we know that the biggest use of gas in the ACT is space and water heating. The most common uses can all be done by efficient electrical alternatives. 00:07:14:07 - 00:07:41:04 Speaker 1 But we do know that there are some situations where they where there may not be current current viable non gas alternatives for new or establishing businesses. And we're particularly interested in understanding what those circumstances are and where those types of businesses might need to be located. We also are interested in understanding implications of timing of a regulation and how it could be phased to set the scene. 00:07:41:07 - 00:08:11:22 Speaker 1 The regulation cannot and will not affect current connections. It can and will only apply to situations where a customer would be seeking a new connection. In the case of renovations or knockdown rebuilds where a gas connection already exists, the regulation would only apply if the current connection was abolished during site works. So if a business was seeking to establish in a location where a gas made already exists and they did not abolish that connection during the retrofit of the building, the proposed regulation would not apply to them. 00:08:11:22 - 00:08:32:18 Speaker 1 Prior to releasing the issues paper, we ran a series of events with industry members to gain an understanding of this, some of the issues and implications of a regulation. These have been the issues paper, which we're here to discuss today and what we're now consulting on. We have various methods of being able to provide feedback, including surveys for most submissions, direct engagement and this webinar. 00:08:32:18 - 00:09:03:05 Speaker 1 Today we will collect the feedback received and commence drafting a regulation mid-year. We currently aiming to have a regulation come into force by November. There will be additional information posted on the Your Say website as we progress through this process. The issues paper sets out a range of background and context issues for gas use in the ACT connection statistics, what's happening in other jurisdictions, the ACT policy and legal framework and the problem that we're actually trying to solve through the regulation. 00:09:03:24 - 00:09:30:21 Speaker 1 The purpose of the issues paper is to outline key matters and considerations relating to a potential new regulation, highlighting some of the known benefits or limitations of various issues and seeking public views. It includes seven issues which outline the specific requirements that are needed for the technical legal process, such as how we identify land that is subject to the regulation or practical implementation issues that have arisen through our research and discussions with stakeholders today. 00:09:31:17 - 00:09:57:04 Speaker 1 We won't be able to cover all of these issues today, and the issues paper contains more details and information about the issues itself. Some of the issues Jess has already touched upon already, but some of the main issues we're currently considering are how we identify what land is included and what land should be included. Initially. Should the regulation treat greenfield and infill land differently, and would it apply to knock down rebuilds if the connection disappears? 00:09:57:17 - 00:10:19:11 Speaker 1 When and how exemptions to the regulation might apply? The types of information that the gas network operator should report or provide when the regulation should commence, and how timing applies to the different types of developments. How it would apply to buildings with the current development of building approval. I'm really looking forward to hearing the community and industry views on this. 00:10:19:14 - 00:10:47:14 Speaker 1 So they will help shape our drafting of the regulations. Thank you. Thanks Cath, for that very comprehensive in a quite short period of time overview of the context and the issues paper that we will be discussing today. And we are about to get into some of those issues in a bit more detail. But before we do, I'd actually just like to go to our panel first. 00:10:48:09 - 00:10:58:23 Speaker 1 Davina, I'll come to you first. From your perspective, what do you think is the most important consideration when developing a regulation to prevent new fossil fuel gas connections? 00:10:59:22 - 00:11:25:05 Speaker 2 Well, first of all, I'd like to start slightly broader and congratulate the ACT government on bringing together this regulation and this discussion today. You know, the themes that Cath spoke to, we're seeing everyone from the International Energy Agency flag that will have, you know, more change out of electrification than energy efficiency in this space. So this is the right issue to be talking about in the built environment at this exact time. 00:11:25:23 - 00:12:00:06 Speaker 2 We have a lot of experience working with the market explicitly on electrification in the voluntary space, and we're partnering with other jurisdictions like New South Wales on their sustainability building set to look at the electrification that they announced in September of last year. And so from the Green Building Council's perspective, we'll do some thought leadership work. So we've done electrification guides for new and existing buildings and unsurprisingly it shows us that it's far more complex, time consuming trade impacted to do these in the retrofit space. 00:12:00:13 - 00:12:23:18 Speaker 2 So the transition issues that are really at the heart of this discussion paper are the real things that we absolutely need to unpack. And we commend the government for having such a detailed focus on these issues and putting together consultations like these. The things that I'd really like to note is I really look forward to engaging with this webinar as our new rating tools 00:12:23:18 - 00:12:49:15 Speaker 2 Green Star have trajectory pathways to electrification. We've been working with large numbers of property proponents over the last five years about what that pathway to electrification looks like. And so our focus is really how we work and partner with the industry to make this necessary transition as efficiently as we can. And there's a real focus that we absolutely need to take everybody with us. 00:12:49:22 - 00:13:14:01 Speaker 2 There's two parts to the transition. There's the workforce side of that that I know Michael will speak enormously eloquently to and will unpack in this discussion. But the other aspects is that we really need to be focused on those who are most disadvantaged, ensuring that transition pathways. Now, in my view, I think we'll see that in later stages of this, particularly on the retrofit side on what's necessary on the incentive side. 00:13:14:12 - 00:13:38:19 Speaker 2 But I'd also like to acknowledge, you know, Cath gave an overview of this. We're starting to see community sentiment move. We partnered with the Cook Safe Coalition last year to have a combination of celebrity chefs come out and say induction cooking is just as fabulous and better in some cases, and to have a leading health advocate. So I think this is a whole of community discussion. 00:13:39:08 - 00:13:48:03 Speaker 2 I really look forward to unpacking the detailed issues with you. But again, I really commend you for pulling together this forum. But the number one issue is transition, Transition, Transition. 00:13:49:01 - 00:14:04:13 Speaker 1 Great. Thanks so much Davina. I think that sets the scene really nicely for our discussion today. Michael, if I can just come to you now, is there an issue or consideration that really stands out for you or has particular significance from your perspective when it comes to the new regulation? 00:14:05:02 - 00:14:33:04 Speaker 3 Yeah, there's a few, and I think, Jess and thanks very much for those words of Davina about being excited about being part of this conversation with the ACT government and we are on board with that transition that the ACT government is taking us on as are a number of other states and territories around Australia. I think what we need to recognize here is that the ACT is leading in this area and while that's exciting, it's also a little bit scary. 00:14:33:23 - 00:15:00:06 Speaker 3 I think the first thing that stands out for me is the particular thing we've been consulted on here probably says this is the first time it really gets real for our industry. We're actually considering a real meaningful policy change about no Connections, which I think will move what for a lot of a lot of people in our industry has been a fairly high level discussion down to a very specific action and will force us to think about those implications. 00:15:00:17 - 00:15:21:09 Speaker 3 Now, I think one of the obvious implications for our industry is what are the workforce impacts, What are both the opportunities and the threats in that? And I'm sure will will that issue will come up a little bit more throughout the session today. There's other issues down the track about how this type of policy would would apply to larger, more complex buildings as it gets phased out. 00:15:22:09 - 00:15:48:16 Speaker 3 Is our electricity network up for this is one of the questions I think the industry is going to have in the back of its mind. But it may be a bit of a different take just to get us thinking about this, given it's the first question you've asked me. Normally, our industry is responding to the development opportunities that would come from building new infrastructure, and there's plenty of examples where we look at development corridors because of a new light rail system or new new transport infrastructure. 00:15:48:24 - 00:16:10:23 Speaker 3 Here we're actually talking about the removal of a piece of infrastructure. So I'd be really interested to see how does that affect our the development of our city, how does it affect our settlement pattern and other things? Because it's not often we think about withdrawal and transition to a different piece of infrastructure as a as a driver for or for our industry. 00:16:11:17 - 00:16:31:08 Speaker 3 Most of all, though, I think like Davina touched on, it's really important that we stay evidence based through this discussion. And I know, Cath, you mentioned that there's been a lot of evidence and analysis go into this work from the government and we commend them on that and we look forward to that continuing through this long transition period. 00:16:31:14 - 00:16:32:02 Speaker 3 Thanks, Jess. 00:16:33:01 - 00:17:00:23 Speaker 1 Thanks, Michael. And thank you to both of you for those reflections. And I'm certainly hearing that the theme of the impact on community and the importance of the focus on the transition for community is really important. So now let's move, though, to discussing some of these issues in the issues paper in more detail. The first issue we'll discuss is about what types of land or land uses should be included in the initial regulation. 00:17:01:19 - 00:17:21:21 Speaker 1 So it's proposed that the initial regulation will not apply to all new gas network connections in the ACT all at once. So this means that future regulations or a staged approach covering additional land or areas may be required. There are several ways the regulation could identify the types of land or premises it applies to, as well as possible exemptions. 00:17:22:09 - 00:17:49:02 Speaker 1 Land could be identified by existing planning zones, districts, suburbs, specific property addresses or parcels of land or blocks of land. Now, for the initial regulation, the ACT Government has a current preference to include all residential and commercial properties. But there are other options, in particular considering, including different or other planning zones in the initial regulation, like industrial or recreational, for example. 00:17:50:00 - 00:18:13:04 Speaker 1 So if planning zones were used, there are a few things we would need to consider when determining how to apply the regulations. So some of these considerations are that new residential properties, as Cath mentioned in her intro, are the primary source of new fossil fuel gas connections preventing all new residential properties from connecting would result in the largest reduction of emissions potential at year. 00:18:13:24 - 00:18:36:16 Speaker 1 Additionally, as has been referenced, a couple of times already, residential gas is primarily used for space heating, hot water and cooking, all of which can be achieved with energy efficient electric alternative. However, applying the regulation to all new residential properties at once could have supply chain impacts for some items and could impact on the work of gas fitters. 00:18:37:11 - 00:19:06:03 Speaker 1 People might start using bottled LPG in their homes, which can be unsafe, or businesses may choose to install plumbed LPG. Apartments and mixed use buildings like residential apartments that have commercial units at street level could be complicated to transition away from gas. Commercial and industrial users use the most gas connection in the ACT and there are some high heat industrial processes that require gas and there's currently no viable alternative to that. 00:19:07:03 - 00:19:28:14 Speaker 1 Most gas reliant businesses are located in commercial and industrial zones in the ACT and business. New businesses may choose to move to a location, move location to one where the regulation doesn't apply to get access to gas. For example, if commercial zones are included in the regulation and industrial zones are not. Michael, I'll come to you first, if that's okay. 00:19:28:14 - 00:19:35:04 Speaker 1 What do you think the main implications would be of including all residential properties in the initial regulation? 00:19:35:15 - 00:19:57:13 Speaker 3 Well, I think for first, the first point about using planning zones is that you have a fairly what they're well know and they're clearly visible for everybody to see. And our industry is used to working with the concept of planning zones. So that would feel fairly comfortable comfortably if, if it picks up residential areas, which I think was your question, that will be the majority of the ACT. 00:19:57:20 - 00:20:19:11 Speaker 3 So I think, like you said, a new project that's probably going to have the single biggest benefit or impact because we don't have those large areas of heavy industry in the ACT. A few things to to maybe consider, though. If we go with planning zones, sometimes planning zones change and we are in the ACT at the moment going through a major reform of our planning system. 00:20:19:11 - 00:20:43:08 Speaker 3 So we just need to make sure we're clear on planning zones, at which point in time or think about how we would manage what happens if zones change from time to time. Sometimes residential zones include lots of nonresidential uses, so there may be restaurants, schools, a whole range of things that might sit in those residential zones that we'd need to think about. 00:20:43:08 - 00:21:10:16 Speaker 3 And also sometimes residential zones might surround, say, a local center and that local center might have a restaurant in it. So we just need to make sure from the electricity provider's point of view that they can still service those areas that might think within a residential area. Overall, I think our sort of practical take is that residential zones is a fairly pragmatic and convenient way to look at this, at least as a starting point anyway. 00:21:11:15 - 00:21:12:03 Speaker 3 Thanks, Jess 00:21:12:17 - 00:21:21:00 Speaker 1 Thanks, Michael. Davina, could I come to you now? Do you think we should be using planning zones when determining where the regulation should applied? 00:21:21:24 - 00:21:43:05 Speaker 2 Well, when we work with other jurisdictions on these kind of regulations, we've been seeing them provided as an asset class. So in New South Wales, it's being done in an asset class level across the whole area. The benefit of that is, is industry awareness. There is an amount of complexity which Michael referenced in planning zones that that make these areas more complex. 00:21:44:00 - 00:22:11:24 Speaker 2 I do think that, you know, one of the things you note in your issue's paper really comprehensively is that 97% of you connections relate to residential. And I know we're going to talk about exemptions later on, but about, you know, if there is one industrial application a year. So I think we need to look at, you know, these you know, we're our big supporters of green hydrogen for steel as a pathway into the future, very high on the hydrogen ladder. 00:22:12:09 - 00:22:34:20 Speaker 2 You know, there's always a balance when you look at different approaches. So an advantage for the A.C.T. is we've seen planning jurisdictions, let's call them applied really well with things like Ginninderry’s Project. However, if you actually look at scale implementation, when we speak to volume builder partners and we say, what are you looking for in a particular jurisdiction, they kind of like clarity. 00:22:35:19 - 00:22:54:16 Speaker 2 So I do think that this is a real balance and I think it's fantastic that you're opening for specific consulting action in this area. But when we look to our international peers in this area, they've actually said per asset class per jurisdictions. So it's the approach that New South Wales is taking, picking an asset class across all of New South Wales. 00:22:54:16 - 00:23:11:12 Speaker 2 That's the approach that we routinely see adopted internationally for this clarity and consumer awareness perspective. So I think a good discussion to have, but we think that there's a real opportunity to go with the whole of the ACT in this area right. 00:23:11:19 - 00:23:39:03 Speaker 1 Thank you both for those reflections. And I can see coming through the Menti, particularly around applying to residential that people as well. There's some responses suggesting that that makes it clear, but also really important to be clear about the nuance, the gray area, all of those sorts of things within that that would be needed, which I think both of you have touched on there. 00:23:39:15 - 00:23:40:14 Speaker 2 Excellent point. 00:23:41:04 - 00:24:08:05 Speaker 1 Thank you so much for your reflections and thank you to everybody who is responding in Menti. You can, as I said, take your time to respond to those questions, but we will move on to the next issue now. So the next issue is about the benefits versus impact of how the regulation applies to greenfield and infill developments. And this includes substantial renovations where the mains gas connection is removed and knock down rebuilds. 00:24:09:00 - 00:24:39:03 Speaker 1 So it's really important that the regulation is clear and consistent in its application. If the regulation isn't applied consistently, a large number of people will move into homes and buildings that are locked into the gas network, which brings with it high costs and of course, new emissions. So it's also a consideration that applying the regulation across the board and all at once will have an impact on the gas between industry and businesses that rely on gas to make sure the regulation applies in an equitable way. 00:24:39:19 - 00:25:08:19 Speaker 1 It makes sense for the regulation to apply to both greenfield and infill developments. So just to be clear, greenfield developments are lands being developed where there isn't an existing development. So new suburbs, for example, infill developments are property developments on land that has previously been developed. So this might be making an open car park into an office space or apartment, replacing a single residential dwelling with medium density housing or units, or redeveloping an area into a new commercial and residential precinct. 00:25:09:15 - 00:25:22:17 Speaker 1 They include knock down rebuilds and renovations where the mains gas gas connection typically is removed to allow for safe construction. Michael, what are your thoughts on applying the regulation to knock down rebuilds? 00:25:23:09 - 00:25:41:16 Speaker 3 Yeah, well, Jess, we're really starting to get into some detail now, I think. And I think it would be easy to say on the face of it that of course it should apply to a knock down rebuild. If that site is in an area or a zone or however we define it, which is whether a new connection would be prohibited. 00:25:42:06 - 00:26:01:01 Speaker 3 But then think about that in a little bit more detail. What would define a knock down rebuild? If you knocked down a house but left the slab or if you left a garage at the back, is that a knockdown rebuild And we start to get into the line of when does a renovation become a renovation and when does it turn into a knockdown rebuild? 00:26:01:02 - 00:26:30:24 Speaker 3 There's lots of detail and new ones, I think, for us to work out there, and I don't think it would be as simple for renovations to say that this policy should apply across the board as it is easy to say that for knock down rebuilds. And I think there'll be lots of questions around cost and fairness and equity around particularly renovations where we might need to be a little bit more flexible on this policy than just an approach where we say no more connections, never, no exceptions. 00:26:30:24 - 00:26:38:22 Speaker 3 Granted. But let me take the easiest question first should apply to lockdown rebuilds. I think we can give that one a yes. 00:26:40:12 - 00:27:05:01 Speaker 1 Thanks, Michael. And it appears so far that Menti agrees with you because it's quite strong in Menti that yes, they should be included and there's some great feedback as to why coming through. So thank you to everybody who is answering there. But I'll just go to Davina now and this is around the need for consistency and equity. 00:27:05:16 - 00:27:10:21 Speaker 1 So could you reflect further on the need for consistency and equity when applying a regulation like this one? 00:27:11:10 - 00:27:34:11 Speaker 2 Absolutely. I think the knock down rebuild space is really clear. It is the same product that you would put in to a new development. So I think from builders volume builders perspective, it's ideal if it's the same product range and that is so much clearer from a consumer perspective in this space. To your point, it's also equitable in this context. 00:27:34:22 - 00:28:00:15 Speaker 2 When we start getting into renovation, as we we start getting into the real property game space where Michael and I like to spend our time the way the regulations currently drafted it notes whether the gas meters removed or not. So if you put, you know, I'll give a really practical example. If you put an existing bedroom on the back and it knocks out your gas meter, but you're not touching the kitchen or the hot water system or any of those, you would trigger this requirement. 00:28:00:21 - 00:28:26:11 Speaker 2 I think this is an area where it's really excellent that you've gone to such deep consultation, because I think there's a real opportunity for nuance that the trigger probably is the update of the appliances that would enable electrification more than the location of a gas made it, because if a gas made is removed, it's likely due to site logistics rather than necessarily a transition. 00:28:26:16 - 00:28:49:05 Speaker 2 Now, equity, such a focus in this space. I know you've been doing community consultation and you know, there's always a fine line. You know, we really need to help people move through this as a transition. And so I think taking a pathway where we really encourage people when they're replacing appliances to move to this space, when they're doing switchboards, setting themselves up for the future. 00:28:49:10 - 00:29:14:18 Speaker 2 But there's going to be a really fine line as to what those exact triggers are, which is really what Michael was alluding to earlier. But, you know, all of us are looking to engage heavily in this space on these new ones to make sure the kind of equity where we get the best outcomes for all Canberrans. And, you know, with the detailed work you're doing, we have to look at some of these in the context of it being provided to broader Australia. 00:29:14:18 - 00:29:22:07 Speaker 2 So the really comprehensive work you're doing working through these transitions is enormously effective and important for industry to talk about right now. 00:29:23:16 - 00:29:46:20 Speaker 1 Thanks, Davina, and thanks to both you and Michael for your reflections and also really appreciate those practical examples because those are the places where people can see the flow on effects of the regulation and it may impact individual decision making, business decision making, that kind of thing. So really appreciate that. Thank you. Okay. So we will move on to the next issue now. 00:29:46:20 - 00:30:15:11 Speaker 1 And this one is around exemptions and it's where when an exemption might apply to the regulation. So there might be situations where an exemption might apply. This could be, for example, where electric alternatives aren't available or feasible costs associated with new connections are likely to increase after regulation is in place. So this means that if an exemption were granted, it's important to consider that the cost of the connection is likely to be higher once the exemption is lifted. 00:30:16:15 - 00:30:50:16 Speaker 1 So some of the other things that might be considered when thinking about exemptions are environmental impacts. The economic potential for the act, for example, new jobs and industry growth, geographic location of a new development, secure access to energy in an emergency such as backup power generation, buildings or areas of national importance. Impact on gas network operations, including building for future phase out of of fossil gas, fossil fuel, gas and availability and viability of alternative energy sources to fossil fuel gas. 00:30:50:16 - 00:31:02:13 Speaker 1 The intended uses at the site. I'll come to you, Davina. That's okay. In your experience, what role do exemptions have in transitioning buildings to become more sustainable? 00:31:02:13 - 00:31:22:09 Speaker 2 Well, this is a fabulous question for us, because in the voluntary space with our new rating tools for Green Star Buildings, we've been working through requirements for electrification, for world leadership buildings. We've got over 400 buildings registered in the program. And so we're having the discussions right now about what these exemptions look like and have been over the last few years. 00:31:23:01 - 00:31:50:09 Speaker 2 So the first piece is we've been surprised and impressed with industries innovation in this capacity. For example, we thought electrification of hospitals would go last. We were absolutely thrilled when ACT, then Victoria and South Australia announced their first all electric hospitals. Now they're using to say we don't have challenges to work through in these asset classes, but we've been overwhelmed by the positivity and innovation. 00:31:50:15 - 00:32:20:12 Speaker 2 We've been overwhelmed by Australia's first all electric cooking school with some ACT government leadership. The one that I would call out really clearly is manufacturing. You know, this remains enormously complex. There's an excellent CSIRO and ClimateWorks report released about a fortnight ago, which we don't currently. We have great alternatives for electric arc furnaces. Green hydrogen is going to definitely play a role for heavy industries in that sense. 00:32:20:20 - 00:32:49:19 Speaker 2 Now this is obviously you're looking at smaller numbers of connections. You are predominantly looking at 97% connection as being in the residential space. So I think when we look at this discussion, it's really important that we get nuance and balance. So good regulation and policy provides the right balance and nuance that there are opportunities for decisions where these issues are clearly not met. 00:32:49:19 - 00:33:15:07 Speaker 2 And there is a number of technical items that have been clearly defined in literature. There are small part of your usage, and I but I do commend you in your issues paper. You're normally explicit, one that you'll work with these exemptions. But two, you start to articulate what the detailed criteria might be because certainty and exemptions, that's the thing that we found in our partnership with industry and ability to work through a process. 00:33:15:07 - 00:33:38:16 Speaker 2 Now, I will note that in the first stage of the process, anyone who had retail said, maybe I would like an exemption, and then after working through with them their opportunities and what that might look like, you know, we have had everyone in apartment say they can absolutely work with this in this context for new builds. We've had huge feedback and support for office buildings. 00:33:38:21 - 00:34:03:06 Speaker 2 You know, we're still working through retail food courts. All the technical solutions are there, but we're going to really have to put more effort in support for industry as we work through these transition. To Michael's really clear point earlier, these are the kinds of facilities that are going to be in these all electric zones. So we really need to support people because it's really awareness and transition issues rather than technical issues. 00:34:03:06 - 00:34:11:11 Speaker 2 At this stage. However, we've got to support our whole community to get there. So this more comprehensive approach is really welcome. 00:34:11:11 - 00:34:32:09 Speaker 1 Thanks, Davina. It's really great to have the perspective of what's happening in other jurisdictions as well, because I think that helps put a wider lens on the issues for us here in the ACT. So appreciate that. Thank you, Michael. I'll come to you now. What do you think some of the impacts of particular exemptions might be for the building industry in particular? 00:34:33:00 - 00:35:00:04 Speaker 3 Mhm. Yeah. Look, just I think there's a, there's a few different ways you could look at the exemption question. I mean to start with just looking at this from a practical point of view, we said at the beginning basically that we're trying something here for the first time and you know, and two years waiting. So the thought that we could craft a policy now that is going to deal with absolutely every scenario, 100%, correctly and perfectly, is probably unreasonable. 00:35:00:04 - 00:35:27:15 Speaker 3 So from a practical point of view, we might just need to give ourself the ability to apply exemptions for those things that we didn't think about, because I'm sure there will be scenarios that we don't think about from once we do settle on what those rules are. The issues for the building industry I think will come down to things like cost and time, how we make an exemption application, how long will it take, how much will it cost? 00:35:28:17 - 00:35:58:12 Speaker 3 We don't want I mean, making sure that that's an efficient process will be important to our industry, particularly if we're dealing with these exemptions sort of maybe while we're in that final design stage of the project, when when time is money, One of one of the big assumption assumptions here, I think also is that there will always, always be electricity available for any type of use that we're proposing. 00:35:58:12 - 00:36:23:22 Speaker 3 So we wouldn't like to see, I guess, exemptions used just because we haven't, because the development might be proceeding ahead of the infrastructure provision work and the electricity providers just not being ready for all the applications. But look, I can think of things like temporary uses, for example, where we might need to consider exemptions, maybe large and complex uses. 00:36:24:19 - 00:36:50:18 Speaker 3 Davina mentioned the food court in local shopping centers. Yeah, who would have thought of that? But some of these users might even need individual transition plans that are agreed between government and the landowner or the landlord to work through what that transition looks like over a number of years. Because the idea that for every single use we can switch off gas overnight is probably unreasonable. 00:36:51:15 - 00:36:59:00 Speaker 3 But again, you've asked lots of detailed questions there, I think, which we don't have quite all the answers for just yet. Thanks, Jess. 00:36:59:00 - 00:37:27:09 Speaker 1 Thanks, Michael. And it's interesting as well, just to reflect on the kinds of things that are coming through Menti at the moment, really the theme there seems to be around exemptions for existing businesses that are reliant on gas for their business or particularly where there's no electric alternative. And then considering what the transition for businesses like that might be. 00:37:27:09 - 00:38:01:13 Speaker 1 So I think that really probably echoes Michael and Davina both what you were saying there. We are now going to move onto the next issue, and that is the issue about reporting. So this issue is about the information the gas provider gives to both customers and the ACT government under the regulation, making sure that the gas provided gives relevant information about the future of gas in the ACT to their customers could help people make decisions about the best energy choices for their homes or businesses. 00:38:02:06 - 00:38:31:05 Speaker 1 So the type of information that could be provided to existing or potential customers might include an information sheet about the future of the gas network in the ACT and all facts about fossil fuel, gas emissions, consumption and connection figures. Now, in addition, the gas provider could be required to report information to the ACT government about all new gas connections being made, including the location type of building the connection was made to and if the information is available. 00:38:31:14 - 00:38:45:09 Speaker 1 The purpose of the connection and I will again go to the panel for some reflections. Michael, what do you think about the role of reporting such as required gas providers to report information to about new gas connections to the ACT government? 00:38:45:22 - 00:39:10:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. Look, Jess, I've got two points to make on this one. I think at its most basic level, it's really important that any new policy be based on on evidence and data as as this policy has been to this point. So getting this information reported from the from the gas providers to the government is going to be really useful to help monitor the monitor the implementation of this policy over a number of years. 00:39:11:09 - 00:39:38:22 Speaker 3 And I can see in the meantime, your responses, lots of feedback about numbers and addresses and land types and things like that. But a second point, just to to try and throw a fresh perspective on this is the gas company or maybe the electricity company is probably also likely to be the point of contact with the consumer. Having those discussions about, yes, you can apply for an exemption or no, you can't make a connection. 00:39:39:08 - 00:40:20:09 Speaker 3 So I'd be really interested in data about the human behavior aspects of this. What what's going through people's decision minds when they're making decisions about connecting gas or not connecting gas that we could use to to inform this policy longer term. And I think it might actually be the gas companies that are best placed to do that, because they'll be having those conversations possibly over the over the front counter of the of the electricity companies office and consumer behavior or of the decision making process information, which we will be much harder to quantify. 00:40:20:14 - 00:40:24:05 Speaker 3 But I think would be really interesting to to bring into this mix as well. 00:40:25:20 - 00:40:43:13 Speaker 1 All right. Thanks, Michael. And Davina just, I guess, following on from that, in the context of the regulation potentially requiring gas providers to give relevant information to new and existing customers, how important do you think the role of consumer awareness is in supporting a smooth transition away from gas? 00:40:45:00 - 00:41:06:17 Speaker 2 Community awareness is absolutely fundamental in this space. When we talk in property terms, you know, a 45 part transition makes so much sense to us as we work through the nuance of each property. But, you know, for mum and Dad, looking at their new home, walking into the display suite, what do I do? What are my options, what's available for me? 00:41:07:03 - 00:41:37:23 Speaker 2 So I think it's really going to be incumbent on all of us, you know, participants from government planning authorities, property providers, I guess, networks to provide clear information about how the transition works and where we are right now, but what it means for the future. So I do think that this awareness raising is absolutely going to be a fundamental part of this campaign to make sure that the transition plan that we draw in policy is felt in practice because that's always the impact measure at the end of the. 00:41:38:02 - 00:42:09:12 Speaker 2 So, you know, again, to Michael's point, as with any other regulation, we would expect there to be consistent reporting. But the communication of that reporting to the most impacted customers who are going to be right within the impact area of these regulations, it's really important that those conversations happen all the way across the value chain. And I think there's an opportunity to design a series of campaigns that go across multiple participants that will involve everyone. 00:42:09:12 - 00:42:14:01 Speaker 2 But of course, the utility providers that those participants are working with. 00:42:15:09 - 00:42:48:24 Speaker 1 Thanks Davina and Michael. And I think, you know, Michael referenced behavior change there and Davina you’re certainly talking about, you know, the right information at the right time for people when they're making decisions. And this is something that has come up, I think, across most of the issues that we've discussed so far, just that importance of communication, but communication at the right time and understanding people's decision making process and the flow on effect of a regulation like this and the impact to help that smooth transition. 00:42:49:12 - 00:43:15:15 Speaker 1 We are now going to move to the next issue, which is quite a hefty one. And this is about transition period and considerations and the commencement date. So this issue is about making sure the introduction and timing of the regulation considers the impacts on key groups and how these can be mitigated. These groups include building and construction trades and developments with existing approvals. 00:43:16:20 - 00:43:44:10 Speaker 1 There are some more complicated issues about introducing the new regulation, and these might require a flexible approach to the transition. So some of these issues are buildings with a current development or building approval. So multi-unit developments that have already received DA or BA could have the chance to change their plans to provide for an all electric build, supply chain and demand for components required for all electric buildings. 00:43:44:20 - 00:44:11:13 Speaker 1 So the building industry might need some more time to source the materials needed to comply with the regulation Workforce impacts. The regulation will impact the ACT’s workforce. Initially, the regulation is likely to result in a decline in gas. Getting work associated with new developments and work for electricians will increase an impact on individuals rights. It's important to note that the regulation will not ban the use of gas in the ACT. 00:44:11:20 - 00:44:35:14 Speaker 1 However, it will reduce individuals ability to make a new connection to the fossil fuel gas mains network in prescribed circumstances. So in relation to timing, it is currently proposed that the regulation will commence by November this year and I will come to you, Michael, what are some of the transition considerations that really stand out for you in relation to this regulation? 00:44:37:04 - 00:45:09:13 Speaker 3 Look, there's lots I think, Jess, maybe the first point to make though, in the ACT, a transition has already begun. We have a large development west of Belconnen called Ginninderry, which was one of the first Greenfield developments to move ahead without providing gas. And so we've already had a year or two or possibly more now of actually seeing how that's being accepted by the industry and by land and home purchases. 00:45:09:13 - 00:45:34:11 Speaker 3 So so so that gives us a good starting point for transition. I think the biggest issue that jumps out to me is how is around the back to workforce impacts and how do we design a transition phase around that. I think keep in mind that we're introducing this policy at a time when our workforce is already stressed. We already have severe labor and skilled shortages as well. 00:45:34:11 - 00:46:02:22 Speaker 3 As I think you mentioned, materials, we have supply chain disruptions that are going to persist for a while longer yet. So, you know, we would urge a little bit of caution in the transition period here too, to not not be too quick to mandate all properties, to not be connected, then there is there's also the consideration of how do we deal with applications or projects already in the system. 00:46:04:12 - 00:46:38:05 Speaker 3 We'll have some very basic questions around what does this mean? If I've launched my development application but haven't yet got my building up approval and things like that? And keep in mind, residential projects take a long time in their design before they end up on a government's desk for a development application. I think what we want to try and avoid is having to get proponents to incur a lot of time and cost to go back and redesign projects which are already significantly through the design or approval process. 00:46:39:18 - 00:47:06:12 Speaker 3 The other consideration I think around transition and this makes me think about the knock down and renovation question we had earlier is have we sufficiently and fully communicated this policy to everyone that needs to know about it? And we don't want people to have surprises. We don't want people who may have been saving for ten years to do their dream renovation of their home only at the last minute, to be surprised by not understanding that they can't make a connection. 00:47:06:12 - 00:47:19:07 Speaker 3 So I think that the quicker and more effectively we can communicate this policy, that will mean the quicker we can move on to transition. Thanks, Jess. 00:47:19:16 - 00:47:29:15 Speaker 1 Thanks, Michael. Davina, I'll come to you now. From your perspective, do you think a phased approach to introducing the new regulation is needed? 00:47:29:15 - 00:47:54:20 Speaker 2 Well, I think it is a combination of the length of transition period and whether you stage. So this is potentially an opportunity to announce with a transition period and do it all at once, you know, or there's there's lots of different pathways that can be considered in this case because all the points that Michael makes about awareness across trades are enormously valid. 00:47:54:20 - 00:48:18:00 Speaker 2 And, you know, the availability of heat pumps that we're working through at scale because this would be a major scale shift. So we're incredibly excited, We're incredibly supportive, but clear announcements with clear transition periods in a way that they can be understood with the industry. So we'd probably lean into a one year transition with doing things in one go to make it as clear as possible for industry. 00:48:18:00 - 00:48:49:08 Speaker 2 However, noting that these are nuanced paces and this is why you're at detailed feedback at this stage, noting that there's a number of options. You know, again, to Michael's point, this isn't the start. This isn't the first project. We're not going from a standing start, nor are we nationally. I think, though, it's really good to raise these issues now, because clearly there's there's a gas fitting item that there's going to be an impact there, noting that we're actually at a time of skills shortages at the moment. 00:48:49:08 - 00:49:12:23 Speaker 2 And so I commend the ACT government on the work they're doing currently about reviewing skills and skills impact across this area. I actually think this is going to be even more relevant in like two stages. Now, I know we aren't discussing those stages in detail, but the workforce issues in particular and the awareness raising is actually far more substantive. 00:49:13:05 - 00:49:38:18 Speaker 2 When we look at renovations in homes. I do think there's a real opportunity for some big picture thinking when we look at what was really successful of rolling out of solar in Australia, noting that Australia has the highest rooftop adoption internationally and one of the figures it's often quoted is that it's about half the price to get it done in Australia rather than in the US. 00:49:38:18 - 00:50:03:09 Speaker 2 And the reason for that is there was a really efficient system arranged for working across the workforce for how that could be done in an efficient way. I think there's real opportunities for us to look at in that space, and I think there's a real opportunity for some early big picture thinking about how do we work with the gas fitters and those who are most impacted by one stage for how can they lead and partner in the transition of later stages? 00:50:03:09 - 00:50:27:03 Speaker 2 Because at a time that new build work is going to drop off, there's going to be some complex renovation work. And so I think there's an opportunity in later stages of this program to look at the two together and see we can sort of comprehensively bring that together, that the thing that I'd note is we need to make space for everyone in this transition. 00:50:27:03 - 00:50:54:03 Speaker 2 And so that has a number of different aspects to unpack. But I think the clearest transition that we can announce in the, you know, with the information set up for consumers and industry sort of simultaneously will really smooth and glide this transition. So I think there's key decisions to be made about the what. But actually I think our community and building industry will be more impacted by the how. 00:50:54:08 - 00:51:14:10 Speaker 2 And so I think we've got to work really comprehensive early together the many attendees who are on this call all touch different parts of industry. And I know you're engaging there deep feedback through Menti, but how we leverage those networks to get right to the heart of key parts of industry and increase awareness as soon as this clarity in this space. 00:51:15:21 - 00:51:47:22 Speaker 1 Thanks Davina. And I think that's the point that you've made about taking learnings from other transitions that have occurred in Australia is a really key one, as well as the kind of coming together of industry and stakeholders to make this as smooth a transition as possible. When we have a look in Menti and see certainly the top issue for people is around the impacts of job and workforce in the ACT and high development costs coming in second. 00:51:48:15 - 00:52:15:01 Speaker 1 I think that some of the other considerations are really reflecting though the the jobs and workforce issues, but also some of the more vulnerable members of the community and also just the ability to plan the feedback. Some of the feedback he's talking about for as an individual or somebody who might be building a home, but also for businesses if they're entering into contracts and things like that. 00:52:15:01 - 00:52:22:01 Speaker 1 So just being able to know what it looks like for them in the future so that can inform the best decision making. 00:52:22:01 - 00:52:40:07 Speaker 2 Now an example sorry that I should have given earlier is one of the builder partners who we've worked with and there's changes in the national construction code. They currently going through like 700 different home designs or something like these, making all these updates. So we really need to think of some of these practical parts of industry. 00:52:41:07 - 00:53:03:17 Speaker 1 Absolutely. Thank you so much. Now before we do wrap up, I am going to ask both Davina and Michael whether they have any final thoughts. I might just come to you, Michael, first, any final thoughts about the issues and the new regulation and what we've discussed today on perhaps what you've seen through Menti? 00:53:04:19 - 00:53:24:03 Speaker 3 Thanks Jess. Well, look, I think what I've thought from the discussion and from memory is that there are so many different considerations. There are so many interests and stakeholders involved in this discussion. But but there seems to be broad consensus among amongst everyone about the direction that we're heading. We're just having lots of questions How do we do this? 00:53:24:15 - 00:53:41:05 Speaker 3 And that's a pretty good starting point to be implementing this policy. If we're all generally on the same page about where we're going, we just need to work out all the nuts and bolts of both the things we need to do along the way. I think I think the ACT is really well positioned to take up this challenge. 00:53:41:05 - 00:54:12:16 Speaker 3 We are a small, compact local area. The workforce challenges which have been highlighted, we know our workforce are mostly local workers, local companies that are going to be highly engaged in this conversation. Also in terms of skills and training, which will be an important part of that workforce discussion. We have local training providers, we have an ACT government who has some control over funding and training priorities. 00:54:12:16 - 00:54:46:17 Speaker 3 So it would seem that we have a number of the controls that we need to be pulling within our control. So this I think broadly, although it's a little bit scary, the path we're moving on, we would be over overall, we are optimistic about this and excited about the challenge and just hope that we are doing everything we can to maximize the opportunities for the ACT while not forgetting about those individuals and important stakeholders that are going to have some negative impact that we need to address along the way. 00:54:47:02 - 00:54:51:09 Speaker 1 Great. Thank you so much, Michael. And Davina, any final reflections? 00:54:52:02 - 00:55:15:20 Speaker 2 Well, I would echo Michael's sentiment on how rewarding it is to see so much discussion and chat in how much industry engagement and these kinds of perspectives, you know, to make these kind of large transitions work. We need industry to lean in and it's fabulous seeing industry do that, both on the Q&A chat and in Menti today, that that's a critical part of this process. 00:55:15:20 - 00:55:43:08 Speaker 2 And I really commend the government for opening it up and setting it up for deep engagement in this forum. I think the next piece that's really interesting is what often when we see these things announced in other jurisdictions locally or internationally, that don't always come with this degree of issues, looking at the degree of complexity and nuance, one of the things we always say in property is the devil is in the detail. 00:55:43:21 - 00:56:27:06 Speaker 2 You know, I again like to commend the team for going there so that, you know, we can, while we're still around these policy formation table, have complex discussions about renovations and guest is in locations that have second or third bedrooms or whatever that looks like. This is the right time to be bringing all of this complexity forward. And again, probably echoing Michael's point, these aren't easy discussions to have, but it's really heartening seeing ACT as a jurisdiction leading into this space for the reasons that Michael described, but also because of the pilot projects you have in a variety of asset classes where you've already effectively been training parts of your workforce. 00:56:27:12 - 00:56:48:24 Speaker 2 This is a transition pathway, I must say. It absolutely makes the glide easier and we need to look at these policy intervention funds as a combination of early government procurement and opportunities taken in this space industry awareness and as we glide into the policy context. And I think that's something that we really clearly see in the A.C.T. on behalf of the Green Building Council. 00:56:48:24 - 00:56:56:00 Speaker 2 This is going to be a long discussion and we look forward to joining you for the extended aspects of that discussion. And thank you very much for having us. 00:56:57:04 - 00:57:20:03 Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you very much. And with that, I would like to formally thank both our panelists, Davina Rooney and Michael Hopkins, for your contributions and discussion today. It's been really valuable to have your insights and thank you so much for agreeing to join us and thank you very much. Also to Cath Collins from the Directorate for setting the scene for us upfront today. 00:57:21:06 - 00:57:41:01 Speaker 1 I would also really like to sincerely thank everybody who has joined us online and contributed either through the Q&A or Menti. We really value your feedback. It's really important and all of it will be included as part of our consultation data. So thank you so much. Now the good news is there are also a couple of other ways you can continue to have your say. 00:57:41:21 - 00:58:16:17 Speaker 1 You can visit your say conversations dot ACT dot gov dot AU slash pathway to electrification and we will pop that URL in the chat. Now there is the opportunity for you to make a formal submission if you would like to. Or we have also designed a survey that goes to each of the issues in the issue paper just to make it a little bit more structured, if you prefer that format to give us your feedback so you can go to again your say conversations dot ACT dot gov dot 00:58:16:17 - 00:58:39:23 Speaker 1 AU slash pathway to electrification and either complete the survey or make a submission consultations are open until the 20th of April, so you still have another month or so to do that. You can also email the team at Gas Transition at ACT dot gov dot AU. Thank you so much to everybody who attended today and we will see you next time. 00:58:40:03 - 00:58:40:19 Speaker 1 Thank you.