00:00:02:17 - 00:00:25:22 Speaker 1 Welcome everyone to this evening's webinar about the regulation to prevent new fossil fuel gas connections in the ACT. My name is Jess and I am the Engagement and Change lead at the social deck. We're working with the team at the ACT Government to help deliver these consultations about the new regulation. I'd like to start by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land from which we join this webinar today. 00:00:26:08 - 00:00:45:24 Speaker 1 For me in Canberra that's the Ngunnawal people. I want to give thanks for being on their traditional lands and acknowledge the connection and care that First Nations people have had with the land, water and life on this country for many thousands of years. I pay my respects to elders past and present, and I extend that respect to First Nations people joining us today. 00:00:47:10 - 00:01:09:01 Speaker 1 So as I mentioned, the Social deck is hosting today's event on behalf of the Environment, Planning and Sustainable Development Directorate within the ACT Government. I'll soon hand over to Cath Collins, who is director Regulatory Policy Integrated Energy Plan Delivery at the Directorate to provide a brief overview of the broader context for the regulation and to summarize the draft issues paper that we'll be discussing today. 00:01:09:24 - 00:01:33:23 Speaker 1 We're also really grateful to have two panelists with us today who'll be offering their perspectives during the discussion. I'd like to introduce Shannon Battisson. Shannon is an architect with close to 20 years of experience in the profession and a dedicated supporter of architecture in Canberra. Graduating from the University of New South Wales, Shannon returned to Canberra to commence work with a small design and construct company with a strong environmental focus. 00:01:34:20 - 00:02:01:13 Speaker 1 Shannon has carried out roles as juror for the Australian Institute of Architects ACT Chapter Awards, the Housing Institute of Australia ACT and Southern Region Awards and the Housing Institute of Australia National Awards Program. Shannon sits on the Australian Institute of Architects, that’s the AIA, ACT Chapter Council, the AIA National Council, the AIA Griffin Lecture Committee, and is the current National President elect for the Australian Institute of Architects. 00:02:02:01 - 00:02:32:13 Speaker 1 Shannon is also a director on the AIA Board. I'd also like to introduce Dr. Thomas Longden. Thomas is a fellow working on the ANU Energy Change Institute's Grand Challenge Zero Carbon energy for the Asia Pacific. He's based at the Crawford School of Public Policy. Thomas holds a Ph.D. from the University of New South Wales and his main areas of research interest are applied econometrics, environmental economics, energy economics and health economics. 00:02:32:23 - 00:02:57:22 Speaker 1 His work on energy, applied econometrics and technological change has been published in leading international journals. Thomas was a contributing author on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report titled Mitigation of Climate Change. So welcome, Thomas and Shannon, and we look forward to hearing from you soon. So what we'll cover today. Today, we'll be discussing the proposed regulation to prevent new gas connections in the ACT. 00:02:58:17 - 00:03:26:08 Speaker 1 Our focus will be on the draft issues, paper and some of the key issues that have been identified so far. These include identifying the land or premises that are subject to the regulation, the application of the regulation to greenfield and infill developments, reporting in the transition period and consideration and the commencement date. I'd now like to pass over to Cath Collins, who is going to give us a little bit of context about the pathway to electrification and an overview of the new regulation. 00:03:26:08 - 00:03:49:17 Speaker 1 Thanks, Cath. Thank you. Welcome, everybody. I just thought I'd give you a really quick overview as to the work that has been done today, so you may or may not be aware that the ACT government made an announcement last August that the way that the pathway that we would take to decarbonize our gas use in the ACT would be through electrification. 00:03:51:00 - 00:04:23:03 Speaker 1 This pathway was decided after a significant amount of research and analysis of the ACT context was undertaken. And one of those key pieces of work was that some modeling was undertaken that showed that the gas use on a per cast on a per customer basis across the ACT has been declining over the past ten years and that this is actually likely to put significant pressure on the ongoing economic viability of the gas network in its current form moving forward. 00:04:23:03 - 00:04:57:18 Speaker 1 So this actually puts significant rise in significant policy implications for the ACT Government and how it's going to manage a declining asset and manage the gas network moving forward. And what we do with customers that are left on the network. So we did look at green gas, including biogas and hydrogen in this work. However, economic and supply constraints showed that in the ACT context, this wasn't really viable for the ACT, particularly because of the economic case for it. 00:04:58:13 - 00:05:22:06 Speaker 1 But we do know that these gases will play a vital part in our future, but they will be limited to niche applications for businesses and business uses that cannot electrify. So at the moment what this means is that we will be focusing all of our efforts on moving towards electrifying what we can and saving power and making the network smaller in the future. 00:05:22:09 - 00:05:47:16 Speaker 1 For those people who really can't or those businesses that really can't electrify. So the as I said, that this puts the decline in economic viability does raise significant policy issues in how we manage this. And what we want to make sure is that we don't leave customers behind. The regulation work that we're looking at here is just one piece of the puzzle. 00:05:47:16 - 00:06:21:03 Speaker 1 So and further work on transition issues more generally is in the pipeline. And this will include a draft integrated energy plan that is being released for public consultation later this year, which will look at a range of matters relating to how we manage the transition for existing customers to move away from gas over the next 22 years. So the ACT Government has a strong commitment to the future transition not being made any worse, which is why we're preventing new connect, why preventing new connections is so important now. 00:06:21:03 - 00:06:57:06 Speaker 1 So we don't want to have a situation where people are connecting, building new properties and connecting gas today and then needing to pay extra costs to then transition away when they could be having an electric future or when they could go electric at the moment and not have that problem in the future. The ACT Government did make a commitment in 2020 that we would be regulating to prevent gas connections and we are fulfilling that obligation by putting forward this regulation now. 00:06:57:06 - 00:07:28:04 Speaker 1 So what this consultation is about is actually about asking the community what the circumstances should be, where we are regulating and where we shouldn't be regulating. So we're really interested in understanding when it's viable, when it's not viable, how this will work for the community and the concerns that it raises for the community. But as I said, this decision to regulate was made in 2020 and it's outlined in the parliamentary agreement which was signed in 2020. 00:07:28:16 - 00:07:50:16 Speaker 1 So as I say, this is only one piece of the puzzle. A lot more work is happening, but this is really about trying to understand when we should regulate, what we should regulate and trying to help from our perspective, trying to make sure that we're reducing the problem of our gas emissions and the transition that will have to go moving forward. 00:07:51:17 - 00:08:14:07 Speaker 1 And the process from here will be getting the feedback from the community. We're doing multiple different ways of getting feedback, taking that on board, looking at what the barriers and blockades are, and then working with key stakeholders, including business groups and people will be affected by the regulation drafting from there and then putting something into place before the end of the year. 00:08:15:20 - 00:08:38:07 Speaker 1 And that's kind of the initial overview of where we're at and where we're headed. So the issues paper that we've released, we actually have identified seven issues in that issue's paper. But what the process of this is, is sort of just looking at a couple of key things that we need to do in the legal process. So some of that is quite technical. 00:08:38:15 - 00:09:09:01 Speaker 1 We're looking at if we create a regulation, we need to create things such as understanding how we identify who is which parts of the ACT is affected by it and isn't affected by it. But what we're doing here in this in this discussion today is really talking about ones that we think are of not the technical legal issues, but actually the issues that are probably more interested in importance to the community that obviously we would take feedback on all the other issues that are that are identified. 00:09:09:12 - 00:09:40:01 Speaker 1 The way that we came up with the issues is actually just through we've already had ongoing discussions. This is not something we came up with in the last couple of months. It's actually been some work that's been happening over the last two years. We've been discussing with industry and with the with the utility provider in the ACT and with other looking at what's happening in other jurisdictions around the world and looking at some of the current barriers and even the legal frameworks that are involved. 00:09:40:01 - 00:10:06:03 Speaker 1 So some of these questions about sort of understanding how the planning or when people make connections and things like that. So this is how we've sort of come up with the issue. So some of it is to answer a legal question and some of it is actually trying to look at the practical implications as to how people use gas, when people use gas so that we can start understanding and understanding when it may or may not be appropriate to put something in place. 00:10:07:17 - 00:10:53:16 Speaker 1 And I think Jess is already sort of said which issues we are focusing on today, which we sort of have to go back through my paper here. So we're looking at which which areas we'll be potentially looking at, including how we apply the and how we apply regulation potentially to infill developments. If it's the same as to greenfield development, those sorts of questions, I think they're some of the really key ones, which I think a lot of our community might be most interested in and reporting and just sort of how the timelines and how and how we sort of get the regulation moving, moving forward. 00:10:54:21 - 00:11:24:09 Speaker 1 I don't think there was anything else I needed to cover off on this particular part. I think I've got I think I got there. Thanks Cath. That's great. Appreciate the overview. And as I mentioned in the intro, we will be getting into and give you a bit more detail about each of the issues as we go through. But before we do get into those specific issues, I'd like to ask each of our panel members about the issues that really stand at stand out or have particular significance from their perspective. 00:11:25:03 - 00:11:35:02 Speaker 1 Shannon, I'll go to you first, if that's okay. Is there an issue or consideration that really stands out for you or has particular significance for households when it comes to the new regulation? 00:11:36:15 - 00:12:03:03 Speaker 2 Look, I think the biggest issue here is how we take ourselves as a community on this journey. So as has been pointed out, you know, that decision from an environmental standpoint has been made and we're on this path. And for me now, as somebody who helps clients design housing and who does a lot of work advocating for the quality of our housing, this shift has the potential to be one of the biggest shifts that we make in terms of facing the climate crisis. 00:12:03:03 - 00:12:28:05 Speaker 2 And it's a really important it is really important, I think, that we just make sure that we're making decisions that don't leave parts of the community behind when we face these things, these matters that are really whole of community issues. I think it's really important to not place undue burden on the most vulnerable members of our community and to share that cost the cost of removing gas from an existing property. 00:12:28:05 - 00:12:48:03 Speaker 2 You know, there's real money involved in that. It's obviously much easier if we're starting from scratch and then we simply don't put gas in that. So that that that making sure that we support all of the community to get across it and the education. I think that's involved so that when people are doing projects they know that this is coming. 00:12:48:21 - 00:13:10:01 Speaker 2 And so not to connect gas or keep gas if they've actually got the option to remove it. So that that kind of bigger education piece so that all members of the community are also aware this is coming, I think is a really vital issue for us to to consider. 00:13:10:04 - 00:13:23:19 Speaker 1 All right. Thanks, Shannon. Thank you for that really important reflection. I'll go to you now, Thomas, if that's okay. From your perspective, what do you think is the most important consideration when developing a regulation to prevent new fossil fuel gas connections? 00:13:25:10 - 00:13:53:24 Speaker 3 I think one of the things that's already happening here is that this is sending a very good signal to households and businesses in the ACT that the ACT government is planning to move down the route of electrifying everything it can. And really, you probably already heard well, you have already heard that there is a real goal of wanting to prevent people being caught out and having to replace new assets, you know, down the track. 00:13:55:05 - 00:14:14:20 Speaker 3 And so in economics, there's a term called a stranded asset and really, you don't want to see that happening in future households where people invest in gas, heating gas, cooktops in a new home and then somewhere down the track in five or ten years time, whenever that happens, you know, there's a mandate from the government to start phasing out appliances. 00:14:15:03 - 00:14:42:09 Speaker 3 And so that would cause a lot of frustration and also be quite expensive. So really, I think it's a case of sending a clear signal to ACT residents and businesses that this is the way the ACT plans to go. I think there is that question mark of what happens for retrospective projects. And so what where is that support to have, you know, existing heaters cooktops to start phasing them out is one of the questions. 00:14:42:17 - 00:15:14:13 Speaker 3 But it does really send that clear message that the ACT is going down the electrification route for transport for heating and cooling and for cooktop stoves. One thing that does need to be well understood is who does this apply to? And I think that is one of the issues that comes up in terms of the planning and making sure that individual householders know that this applies to them and will even discuss the issues of renovations and knock down rebuilds and whether it applies there. 00:15:14:22 - 00:15:37:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Thomas. And I think that's a nice place to start us discussing about some of the specific issues in a bit more detail now. So let's move on to that. So the first issue we're going to speak a little bit more about is the issue of identifying land or premises that are subject to the regulation. 00:15:37:23 - 00:16:04:03 Speaker 1 So this is about which types of land or land uses should be included in the initial regulation. So for example, this would be residential, commercial, industrial, mixed use that that type of thing. It's proposed that the initial regulation won't apply to all new gas network connections in the ACT all at once. So this means that future regulations or a staged approach covering additional land or areas might be required. 00:16:04:03 - 00:16:32:07 Speaker 1 So for the initial regulation, the ACT Government has a current preference to include all residential and commercial properties. But there are other options, in particular considering, including different or other planning zones in the initial regulation, like industrial or recreational recreational, for example. But as we've already heard, it's a complex issue and there are a few things that we would need to consider when determining how to apply the regulation, particularly to planning zones. 00:16:32:07 - 00:17:01:22 Speaker 1 And I'm just going to run through some of those considerations now before we start asking for your feedback. So new residential properties are the primary source of new fossil fuel gas connections. Preventing all new residential properties from connecting would result in the largest reduction in emissions potential per year. Additionally, residential gas use is primarily used for space heating, water and cooking, all of which can be achieved with energy efficient electric alternatives. 00:17:01:22 - 00:17:28:22 Speaker 1 However, applying the new regulation to all new residential properties at once could have supply chain impacts for some items and could impact on the work of gas fitters. People might start using bottled LPG in their homes, which can be unsafe, or businesses may choose to install plumbed LPG. Apartments and mixed use buildings like residential apartments that have commercial units at gas level could be complicated to transition away from gas and commercial and industrial users 00:17:29:08 - 00:17:52:06 Speaker 1 use the most gas per connection and there are some high heat industrial processes that require gas and there's no current there's currently no viable alternative to that. Now, most gas reliant businesses are located in commercial and industrial zones in the ACT. So new businesses may choose to establish in a location where the regulation doesn't apply to get access to gas. 00:17:52:06 - 00:18:06:12 Speaker 1 For example, if commercial zones are included in the regulation and industrial zones are not. Can I ask you, Thomas, what d sorry, do you think we should use planning zones when determining whether regulation should apply? 00:18:06:12 - 00:18:33:15 Speaker 3 From my understanding, you know, that is a common approach that is used across the ACT. So it's an established method. It's just the status quo. I don't know if there is a need for, say, a priority area or suburb. I think it can be rolled out across the board as a whole as long as the communication works and residential and commercial customers know it applies to them when it's facing out. 00:18:33:15 - 00:19:10:02 Speaker 3 So I mean, even something as simple as, you know, that communication of making sure that people know when they're getting approvals that, you know, gas connections won't be allowed in that area, need to be communicated well. But I'm quite confident that can be done, even if it's a planning zone or using a priority suburb, priority area. I think the direct targeting of communication to people who are planning to do renovations, knock down rebuilds and completely new building infrastructure is basically the key to getting this right. 00:19:10:02 - 00:19:19:22 Speaker 1 Great. Thanks, Thomas. And can I just ask you, Shannon, what you think the main implications would be of including all residential properties in the initial regulation? 00:19:19:22 - 00:19:43:08 Speaker 2 Look, I think that it's kind of a no brainer to include new residential, so greenfield developments, new suburbs and things like that. That's a really simple way, I guess, to get a big change. Where the complication comes is when we're renovating a house and we see this already in the rules around increasing the thermal performance, for example, of a house. 00:19:43:08 - 00:20:09:24 Speaker 2 So at what point in a renovation do you trigger needing to bring the entire old house up to New standards so they can be a little less simple to define where it where it happens from? I guess a residential setting, especially if you're talking about single residential. The biggest kind of gas use is us relying on on gas, heating and gas cooking. 00:20:10:05 - 00:20:37:07 Speaker 2 Now, gas heating. Now that we've moved into a world where most houses have some form of reverse cycle air conditioning in that need for gas heating I think becomes less and less. And so the gas, the reliance on gas for cooking becomes, I think, in my experience, that the biggest kind of hold factor And one of those things that we need to get past, I think, and, you know, have that really open conversation about is actually a cultural difference in how we cook. 00:20:37:17 - 00:21:14:07 Speaker 2 So where we have clients of certain cultures and the way that they cook, the manner in which they cook, they're quite reliant on gas Cooktops for example. Now there's a lot of change coming out and those the ability to cook in traditional ways, but on an electric cooktop, for example, are happening. And so that's a really wonderful opportunity for us to develop that further and have suppliers rewarded for developing good alternatives to the old school gas cooktops and to simply really clearly define at what point we are actually going to make it mandatory to cross over. 00:21:14:13 - 00:21:48:09 Speaker 2 Because as you know, has been raised already, we're going to get to a point where somebody may do a renovation, put a gas cooktop in, and in two years time that gas cooktop becomes obsolete. So we do need to make it really clear to everybody who's involved in renovating a house or looking after a house. For example, if you're a landlord and you know the gas hot water, for example, breaks down, that it needs to be very clearly communicated that replacing it with a new gas unit is is not viable long term. 00:21:48:09 - 00:22:14:19 Speaker 2 So that kind of clear cut off, I think, about at what point we are going to actually mandate that no gas appliances are put into a house becomes a really important factor in multi residential housing. It's absolutely vital that it happens at the start. The cost implications and the sheer complexity of converting an apartment building from gas to electric is is really huge. 00:22:14:19 - 00:22:32:22 Speaker 2 It's somewhat easier in single residential housing, but it's still a massive burden for families to actually financially support. And so making sure that we stop putting new gas appliances in I think is really, really important. 00:22:33:18 - 00:23:10:10 Speaker 1 Right. Thank you so much, Shannon and Thomas. And I can say in the Menti response to this question, it really is around industrial and industrial processes where high heights required, where people are saying that they think that that should perhaps be excluded really in that industrial and potentially commercial space. And also, you know, depending on the ability to transition, which I think is what Shannon and Thomas, you were both touched on there around support and information and communication and really clear pathway. 00:23:10:10 - 00:23:36:03 Speaker 1 So thank you for that. Okay. So we're going to move now to the next issue that we're going to talk about today. And this is about the benefits versus the impacts of how the regulation applies to Greenfield in infill, infill developments including substantial renovations where the mains gas connection is removed and down rebuilds. And we just heard from Shannon, there's some points about the issues regarding renovations. 00:23:37:08 - 00:24:02:13 Speaker 1 So it's important that the regulation is clear and consistent in its application. So to make sure the regulation applies in an equitable way, it makes sense for the regulation to apply to both greenfield and infill developments in greenfield development, to the lands being developed where there isn't an existing development like new suburbs. Infill infill developments are property developments on land that has previously been developed. 00:24:02:13 - 00:24:34:19 Speaker 1 So this might be an open car park into an office space or apartment, replacing a single residential dwelling with medium density housing or units, or redeveloping an area into a new commercial and residential precinct. But it also does include knockdown, rebuilds and renovations where the gas connection is removed. If the regulation isn't applied consistently, a large number of people will move into homes and buildings that are locked into the gas network, which brings with it high costs and emissions. 00:24:35:10 - 00:24:51:04 Speaker 1 It's also a consideration that applying the regulation across the board and all at once will have an impact on the gas fitting industry and businesses that rely on gas. Shannon, we've heard a little bit about this, but have you got any further thoughts about applying the regulation to knock down rebuilds? 00:24:52:06 - 00:25:16:03 Speaker 2 Look, I think it's an absolute must. I think it's it's madness as a community to have made this decision to electrify and then to allow new buildings be built. Now, knowing that in such a short timeframe, we are going to abolish the gas network. So I think the knock down rebuilds are really a vital part of that change. 00:25:16:03 - 00:25:51:03 Speaker 2 So as soon as we mandate the new housing in Greenfield developments, to have to have it, a knock down rebuild should absolutely be compelled to be all electric. I do think the difficulty becomes with renovation and how we determine how much how big a renovation has to be, where that threshold is. So, for example, if somebody's simply putting new windows in high performing windows and things like that, they are technically touching all parts of the house, but they might be investing a relatively small budget in that renovation. 00:25:51:09 - 00:26:14:18 Speaker 2 So to put the pressure on them to also then disconnect gas and replace fixtures and fittings inside that gas reliant might be an undue pressure at this point. However, if somebody is really gutting their house and new kitchens, new bathrooms and things like that going in, then it makes sense that they also fall under the regulation, that the anything new that is installed in the property should be electric. 00:26:15:13 - 00:26:29:23 Speaker 2 So I do think that any knock down rebuilds absolutely has to be all electric and that we have to be very clear about where the switchover point is, where that threshold is when we're talking about renovations. 00:26:31:14 - 00:26:47:15 Speaker 1 Thanks Shannon, I might just ask you now, Thomas, around this issue of consistency and equity, when introducing a regulation like this, can you reflect further on the need for that kind of consistency, consistency when applying a regulation like this one? 00:26:48:24 - 00:27:18:15 Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, Shannon raised a really good point about what type of renovation would be included. And so I really touched upon the heat and cooling, but also that there's that question about kitchens as well and really communicating the change across the broad population because you could quite easily have a case where people renovate their kitchens without actually expecting that a replacement of gas oven is a new connection or is a renovation that is part of the policy. 00:27:19:08 - 00:27:43:05 Speaker 3 And so it's really important to make sure that it's communicated well and to really have that sort of support schemes to make sure that the transition to different cooktop appliances, you know, is embraced across all of the community. And that's quite an important thing. Like as we've spoken about attitudes towards cooking with gastop, it's really change across our communities. 00:27:44:06 - 00:28:11:11 Speaker 3 Ask Australia have released a report linking that to increased asthma rates that is not known across the board. And so that is information that needs to be shared. The alternatives and the improvement in appliances, especially in the induction, in appliances in terms of cooking is important. But also, you know, other electrification options like kitchen top blocks and other things that would actually cut through and really improve that kitchen. 00:28:12:01 - 00:28:32:18 Speaker 3 It needs to be part of that story. The reason why I'm talking about the kitchen so much is because I'm concerned about low income households that might actually be very keen to do a sort of smaller renovation and then potentially get caught out by the legislation because they didn't realize that changing their oven appliance is part of that. 00:28:33:00 - 00:28:44:08 Speaker 3 And then, you know, two or three or five years time that will come out. So that's partly a communication issue. But I think that's one thing that's important with the term renovation there that needs to be clarified. 00:28:45:22 - 00:29:07:19 Speaker 1 Thanks, Thomas. And I can say from the Menti here that people who are responding, they're fairly unanimously saying that, yes, the regulations should be applied to knock down rebuilds and substantially renovations. But that issue we've been very clear about where the threshold is for that is really important. Can I make a really quick comment in relation to that? 00:29:08:04 - 00:29:53:04 Speaker 1 Just just just for clarity in relation to this, our regulation can only apply to with the legal framework that we have available to us is if they if during a renovation the, the gas connection is abolished. And then so if, if the course of the work that is being done requires the, so if you're doing a substantial renovation that requires you to disconnect the service, not just close it down, but actually remove the meter, it can only kick in at that point, which is the request for a new one. 00:29:53:11 - 00:30:20:18 Speaker 1 The discussion that we're having here is actually a really important discussion for consider of other policy measures, but they're not quite ones that we can address specifically within the regulation itself. But I think that that's a really important discussion for us to have about community messaging and what we actually talk to people about potentially in the building policy space and some of the other areas about bringing buildings up to standard and when that will actually kick in. 00:30:20:18 - 00:30:43:03 Speaker 1 But we can't necessarily do all of that with this particular regulation, but we can do part of it with that. So we can only do the the physical connection work here, which will require that if they if they if the renovation or the knock down, rebuild, abolishes or decommission the existing service and then they want it again after that. 00:30:43:08 - 00:31:14:22 Speaker 1 So it's almost like that would have to have so it basically is creating a new connection at that point. Again. Yeah, thanks for that clarification and I think that really does go to that point around being very clear in the communication and language around knockdown rebuilds and substantial renovations where the mains gas connection is abolished because that will obviously factor into people's decision making around what they are choosing to do with their with their homes and their renovations. 00:31:16:03 - 00:31:40:06 Speaker 1 Okay, let's move on now. This next issue is about reporting and it's about the information the gas provider gives to customers and to the government. So the gas provider could be required to report information to the government about all new gas connections made made, including the location type of building the connection was made to. And if the information is available. 00:31:40:15 - 00:32:12:03 Speaker 1 The purpose of the connection is making sure that the gas provider gives relevant information to their customers could also help people make decisions about the best energy choices for their homes or business. So the types of information that the gas provider would be required to provide to existing or potential customers might include an information sheet about the future of the gas network in the ACT and or facts about fossil fuel, gas emissions, consumption and connection figures. 00:32:12:17 - 00:32:17:21 Speaker 1 Thomas Do you have any thoughts about what kind of information should be reported about the gas connections? 00:32:19:03 - 00:32:43:05 Speaker 3 Well, actually, one of the real hot topics over the last two years or so is about actual fugitive methane emissions and the reporting that they're actually higher than expected. And so a lot of people may have seen some of the news stories about that. Specifically, we were covered in the media talking about hydrogen. So definitely a life cycle analysis of those emissions would be important. 00:32:43:05 - 00:33:06:11 Speaker 3 And I'm sure that that that's plant or would be part of the plans. I actually don't have a gas bill, so I don't know if it's the same as your electricity bill, where you do get the actual current carbon footprint estimate of what you've consumed over the period. We do that with electricity bills in the last couple of years that now has gone basically down to zero. 00:33:06:19 - 00:33:35:20 Speaker 3 But in other regions, New South Wales, Victoria, you do get an estimate of the greenhouse gas intensity of your electricity bill, which is very important information. And I think that narrative about gas as being, you know, relatively clean and harmless is really important to flip. And that part of that is actually getting the emissions intensity calculation correct. I'm sure that that's on the mind of the government. 00:33:36:03 - 00:34:04:19 Speaker 3 But really one of the things that people don't understand is that the gas extraction itself contains fugitive fugitive methane emissions, which won't be part of the ACT’s carbon footprint, but it is in terms of scope free, in terms of emissions that happen elsewhere. And that's a really important discussion that's happening at the moment, at least in the academic circles around new coal gas fields, is that it's not just the gas and coal we use or we export. 00:34:04:24 - 00:34:13:15 Speaker 3 It's also what happens when we extract it. So the carbon intensity of gas is probably higher than most people think. 00:34:13:15 - 00:34:42:15 Speaker 1 Thanks, Thomas. Cath, can I just ask you Sorry to put you on the spot. Do you know what we get on our gas bills here in the ACT in terms of emissions information. I, I just had, I just had a thought about it. I could probably go and look my gas bill up while we're talking. I'm not sure because the bill bill information is it's actually highly regulated by certainly in the energy, in the electricity space. 00:34:42:15 - 00:35:05:07 Speaker 1 So what goes on to your bill is actually very much determined by the AER and monitored by the AER. I think it might, but it might not. So if I might have a look, whilst you said I don't to, I'm listening to the conversation, but I also might have a look and see if I, if I get an answer, I might see if I can put something on the chat just to say if it does or doesn't, just just for people's information. 00:35:05:13 - 00:35:20:06 Speaker 1 Okay, we'll let you go and have a look on your fridge. Can Shannon, can I ask you, in your experience, what do you think would be most helpful for someone who is building a house in relation to receiving information about the regulation? 00:35:20:06 - 00:35:53:06 Speaker 2 Yeah, look, I think it's a really interesting question because one of the things that we're asking for or considering asking for is the gas provider to provide a level of information about how their their service and their product that they use is going to become obsolete in our community. And so I'm very glad to hear that there's a lot of regulation around what kind of information is required to go on bills, because I think that it becomes actually that the onus of making sure that that information is communicated to our community is a government. 00:35:53:08 - 00:36:37:17 Speaker 2 I think it's a government responsibility. I think one of the biggest issues that we have is in Canberra we have this fantastically multicultural community and often I live in a new suburb, I live in a greenfield development in Molonglo, and we have an incredible wealth of different communities and different cultures who live in our area. One of the things that I find in talking to neighbors and in doing speaking information sessions in our area is that people, if they're new to Canberra or new to Australia or generally they weren't aware at all of these kind of changes coming. 00:36:37:23 - 00:37:18:13 Speaker 2 And so I think that the the first point that they would actually get information is from their builder. So in Australia most residential projects actually start by a client contacting a builder as opposed to lots of other places in the world where a client would start with an architect. And in Australia, you know, most common form of a residential project is that first communication would be between a new homeowner and the builder that they're approaching to build their house and so it might be that we need to be making sure that that level of information and that level of education is actually going to all of the different people who help homeowners build their home. 00:37:18:20 - 00:37:39:07 Speaker 2 So in the ACT, a lot of that would be that builders need to be educating their clients about this change that is coming so that we don't have people who are quite new to our city or to our country unaware that this change is happening in and that they're making decisions that will have a really big impact potentially just, you know, a few years down the track. 00:37:39:15 - 00:38:07:20 Speaker 2 So what we want to avoid is people unknowingly choosing a gas supplier that's without any kind of wider understanding of the fact that in the next kind of, you know, small period of time that will become obsolete, I think that also it becomes really important that that level of information then gets continued through and gets provided with each bill. 00:38:07:20 - 00:38:45:13 Speaker 2 I actually think it's a really sobering piece of paper to get when you see how much electricity your house is using compared to the houses around you. And so that's a really important mechanism, I think, for having a real world impact on people in houses. So I live in a very low energy use housing house. It was hot, you know, specifically designed for our climate and things that I still really look at that very closely every time I get a bill to say how we actually operating the House, how how we you can build the most efficient in the world. 00:38:45:13 - 00:39:18:15 Speaker 2 But if you still choose to operate it a certain way, you can still use lots of electricity. And so I think that that every time we get a bill that ability to then have that information and that education reinforce is really powerful and we should be making sure that every opportunity, I guess in a project and every opportunity in the life of a house where we can give that information about changes that are coming or the way that we are actually functioning, that house is really important functioning. 00:39:18:19 - 00:39:47:15 Speaker 1 I think the certainly the mental responses are affecting people. I would expect to see information about this coming early and often when they buy, when they buy a new house, when they're as part of routine communication. So on an ongoing basis or when they go to change something about their gas that they're alerted to it then. And just confirming that the emissions data isn't on the ACT gas bill. 00:39:47:15 - 00:40:10:15 Speaker 1 So that's something interesting for us to note. Thank you for having a look at your bill, Cath, for us. Okay. We're just going to move on in the interest of time. Now, this next issue is around the transition period and the commencement date. So it is proposed that a regulation will commence by November 2023 or as close to this date as possible. 00:40:11:01 - 00:40:30:05 Speaker 1 It's important for us to understand community views and impacts of this start date and on whether the regulation implementation should be phased for different types of developments. For example, what types of building development should have a phased or stage introduction, and should a prohibition on residential areas apply to all types of residential buildings from the date of commencement? 00:40:30:05 - 00:40:55:02 Speaker 1 Or should it commence with high density in year one, medium density in year two, etc.? We're also really interested in interested in understanding whether you have any concerns about a November 2023 commencement date in relation to the impact on things like jobs and the workforce, the economy, or the individual rights of people to choose gas. And I would just go back to the panel for some reflections on this one. 00:40:55:02 - 00:41:01:20 Speaker 1 Shannon, do you have any reflections on the proposed start date for the new regulation for November this year? 00:41:03:09 - 00:41:30:21 Speaker 2 Look, I think the plain fact of the matter is there's no good time to make this kind of change. What we're talking about is making a fundamental shift in the way we approach some big parts of how we live. And I often see arguments that, you know, like it's not a great time financially. You know, there's a lot of pressure from as we come out of the pandemic, there's a lot of pressure on build prices and things like that. 00:41:31:05 - 00:41:58:24 Speaker 2 I think the really difficult truth that we need to accept is that there will never be a good time. And if we are actually going to come through the climate crisis, we need to do it as soon as is humanly possible. So for me, it's not a matter of waiting. I think we need to do it a.s.a.p. I think the bigger question is how do we support the people in our community who will be most significantly impacted by the change? 00:41:58:24 - 00:42:22:22 Speaker 2 And that is things like job losses, the cost of the increased cost of gas as we quickly come off the gas network and all of those kind of flow on effects of those things. So for me, yet it has to happen as soon as possible and we need to find ways to support our community through that, through the shift. Thanks Shannon. 00:42:22:23 - 00:42:49:19 Speaker 1 And that is also been reflected in the Menti comments. People are saying the economic cost to households, it's a real pressure at the moment that is right in front of people, things like the need to build critical mass of tradies and supply chains and preparing that way. Thomas, I'm just going to ask you now, what do you think some of the implications or benefits might be if there was a phased introduction of the regulation? 00:42:49:19 - 00:43:13:05 Speaker 3 Yeah, my first thought went to whether there would be confusion about when the appropriate date is happening, for whom. So that would need to be really communicated well. At the same time, November is surprisingly close, so I'm sure that that follows on from Shannon's comments that they'll never be a good time. But the fact that it's coming up means that there will be some concern. 00:43:14:16 - 00:44:00:24 Speaker 3 But I think I am quite confident that the communication will be quite clear in who it applies to. And it's really my concern is more that sort of household level with the renovations or knock down rebuilds is, as Shannon mentioned, having that communicated as quickly as possible so people can make that decision within their finances. It's important. And, you know, I keep talking about communication, but I think when the communication of who it applies to and all the follow up happens from the ACT government, I think it needs that follow with the benefits and the reasons this is happening, including those health impacts, the decarbonization, but also the fact that it shelters you from potential 00:44:00:24 - 00:44:31:05 Speaker 3 cost increases over the next few years with gas increases. So with the basically the price of gas increasing because at the moment the gas price has increased, That is very much an international sort of development. And I don't see that settling down at any time soon because of that demand for LNG traded and the fact that Australia doesn't have a system of securing its own supply, the ACT Government can't do anything about that. 00:44:31:14 - 00:44:56:01 Speaker 3 So we are completely vulnerable to future gas prices. Of course, you know, people don't really think about that. It's why a lot of energy efficiency sort of and, you know, retrofit programs and thermal comfort programs don't happen is because people don't think about the lifecycle. There is a little bit of traction happening with, say, EVs, that people do understand that the upfront cost is higher. 00:44:56:01 - 00:45:21:24 Speaker 3 But then the running costs are lower. So it's some sort of narrative about that needs to occur that, yes, you might be changing your plans with respect to what you were doing with the knock down rebuild, but actually over the lifecycle that will actually potentially save you money. And I think that's important to communicate that. But definitely confusion is something we want to minimize and it's probably been a theme of a lot of our discussions today. 00:45:21:24 - 00:45:51:24 Speaker 1 Thanks, Thomas. I appreciate that perspective. And certainly that theme about needing to be clear about in the communication is one that is woven through almost every issue around the regulation. So I really appreciate the spotlight on that. Okay. So we are actually almost at the end of the webinar this evening. Before we wrap up, though, I am just going to ask our panel for any final reflections or thoughts themselves. 00:45:51:24 - 00:45:54:12 Speaker 1 Shannon, have you got any parting words? 00:45:56:07 - 00:46:25:13 Speaker 2 Look, I think that changing how we think about our homes is not a small thing to do and it's a really, really important thing to do. We have to build smaller Canberra builds the biggest houses in the world. We have to build better. So we need to put better quality structures into our into our community and we really have to move away from a reliance on non nonrenewable resources. 00:46:25:19 - 00:46:52:16 Speaker 2 So we're not saying that that's a small kind of shift to make, but it's a really, really important one. And I think that as we come through it, at the end of the day, we will be really grateful for the change. So, you know, if we can handle the change in a way that is supportive, that is a way in a way that we can, you know, have some give and take so that we don't leave people behind. 00:46:52:16 - 00:47:03:09 Speaker 2 I think it's a really, really important shift, but it does come down to us all, actually, that bigger picture of rethinking how we build our homes generally and how we consider them. So thanks for having the conversation. 00:47:03:23 - 00:47:09:12 Speaker 1 Thanks so much. Shannon. Thomas, any final comments or reflections from you? 00:47:09:12 - 00:47:39:04 Speaker 3 Yeah, it's been great to be part of the discussion, especially in the realities of, you know, getting decarbonization to work and really designing the regulations that do that. I think it's really important that the ACT government is doing this, even if it's not applying across the board, that it's happening to new connections. It's a clear signal that something is changing and the other programs will be happening over the next few years and onwards to make the transition and basically electrify everything we can. 00:47:40:02 - 00:48:09:20 Speaker 3 On a personal note, I'm trying to think about when I last lived in a house with gas appliances and I can't actually think about. I think it was one rental apartment in my twenties. So this mind shift, it's a really interesting question because a lot of regions across Australia do not depend on gas for heating cooking and I think the term fossil fuel gas is a really great term to use. 00:48:10:01 - 00:48:46:21 Speaker 3 It really highlights the emissions angle but also kind of links it to the dinosaur debate because for me gas is really retro and I have never had I yeah, I literally can only think of one rental apartment that I've had that has had gas appliances. So whenever I talk to people in the ACT about the future of gas and that people really push against this sort of electrification discussion, I sort of get surprised and have to remember that I moved to a new province where gas is dominated historically. 00:48:47:12 - 00:49:10:22 Speaker 3 So I think it's really brave that the ACT government is taking on this angle. But a lot of studies are showing that to really decrease emissions to a large extent, electrification is the way and I think it's really important that the ACT Government makes that a clear directive and that the flow on effects happen through policy over the next decades. 00:49:10:22 - 00:49:32:12 Speaker 1 Thank you, Thomas. Okay. So we have come to the end of the webinar today and I would again like to really thank our panelists, Shannon Battisson and Dr. Thomas Longden, for their contributions today in the really valuable discussion. And thank you also to Cath Collins from the Directorate for setting the scene and jumping in on those few points as well. 00:49:32:12 - 00:49:58:22 Speaker 1 Really appreciate the discussion tonight. Thank you to all of you. And I would also like to extend a really sincere thank you to everyone who has joined us online as a participant in the webinar today. We see you in the Menti comments and in the Q&A and thank you so much for contributing your views. They are really valued. Now the good news is there are a couple of other ways that you can have your say if you visit your say conversations dot ACT dot gov dot 00:49:58:22 - 00:50:20:11 Speaker 1 AU you can complete the survey or you can make a submission. And we've designed a survey there that gives user an easy way to respond to the issues paper without having to read it all. But please, if you would like to read the issues paper and make a submission, you are very welcome to. So that's your say conversations dot ACT dot gov dot 00:50:20:11 - 00:50:42:20 Speaker 1 AU slash pathway to electrification. You can also email the team at gas transition at ACT dot gov dot AU or if you would like to, as I mentioned at the start of the webinar, provide any feedback or have some questions about how you can keep engaging. You are very welcome to email us and engage at the social desk dot com. 00:50:43:20 - 00:50:55:23 Speaker 1 So that brings us to the end of the webinar this evening, 3 minutes early. So I will give those back to you on a Tuesday evening. Thank you once again for attending today. We'll see you next time.